OT: Northwestern players can form a union
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I say ye are opening up something that will change college sports forever.
Pandora's Box Is Now Open
Why you say that? I for one believe that football is one of the hottest businesses alive, granted I dont believe their employees. But they have a certain athletic standards to up hold coming in on scholarships, by producing on the field. Look at the revenue they get with the cost of entrance and concession stands come on now , thats not even half of what the schools get from all the local businesses in the area that jacks up all their prices during game time. The we talking parking, where its usually free, until game time. And we all know when you have 3 to 5 star players out there doing their thing and winning games your going to have sold out games.. "thats money in the bank" We not going to talk about these xbox and play station games thats out here now... Now if they can settle some of the concerns of the things these players are asking to get without it being union, I say go for it. But the NCAA rules are set up so tight you dont even own your own name in this while your playing they do... All of our players names are listed for these games they have, I dont see them getting anything from that. Do they even ask for permission to do it before hand, from the players? Im just saying!!! Somethings are going to have to change in all fairness, for the pain and suffering these players endure for the love of the game...
This post was edited on 3/26 5:44 PM by Bulletproof09
I don't think a court would rule that college athletes are employees since they don't even pay taxes on scholarships. Most college sports lose money and there is only a profit on football and men's basketball and good accountants know how to minimize those. Hard to say how this plays out. Fact is big time cfb has been off the reservation for awhile. "Academic standards" are baloney at quite a few. Half the SEC are basically semi-pro teams with abysmal graduation rates. Colleges look bad chasing after millions while players can't sell an autograph even if they had dying parents. I think some colleges would be happy to run semi-pro teams where they have to pay players but then they have to deal with the women's sports issues. I could see some college just giving up on sports scholarships like the Ivy League. Army could be a contender again lol.
This post was edited on 3/26 6:08 PM by ashokan
This post was edited on 3/26 6:08 PM by ashokan
I would hope the courts would not support this view. Find a different accomodation for this football money making issue. It opens the door to every other sport, mens and womens, money making sports and money losing sports. Who will bare the increased costs of paying athletes, other students, higher ticket prices, most schools don't have TV contracts? College costs are too high already, and kids leave with too much debt now. The money that football makes supports most other non-money making sports at most colleges. I could see many colleges dropping other sports because they can no longer afford them, so football players make out at the cost of other students, in other sports. Academics will now take even more of a backseat if kids primary job is football, and most college football players never go pro so they actually need an education/degree to find employment after college. I think this is a very slippery slope.....if you want football as your paid job,form a football minor league out of high school and don't even go to college, and see how lkong that lasts.
This really is a potential game changer for college sports. I would also say the "Law of Unintended Consequences" applies here..
Lots of questions.
1. The NW folks say that they are not asking for "Pay for Play", but that has to be a nautural extension.
2. Does everyone get the same $$$ / benefits?? Do Seniors get more than Freshman?? (Union Model) or do QB or Star RB get more than reserve kickers??
3. Do I have to join the Union? Advantage to Southern Right to Work states - Big 10 takes another hit.
4. If it is not Pay for Play, how do I have money to pay my Union Dues??
My view
1. This may not be awful for Big Time College FB, but it is bad for overall CFB and a disaster for sports not called Football and Men's BB.
2. The coaches salaries have gotten out of control and it is hard to cry that you have no money when your highest paid employee is a coach.
3. The top 65 or so schools have talked about forming their own NCAA like organization - this may do it for them. Those that can and those who can't.
4. Not sure everyone wants to go this way. If I am NW and can't play a couple of MAC schools and a FCS school, then it become REALLY hard to consistently win. The big guys just beat each other up - kind of like the BB teams that have great non-conference records and then they get into the conference schedule and have a losing record.
This is the opening shot that will take many years to work through the courts. Will be interesting to see how it ends.
Lastly - I think the NCAA and members could have moved faster and headed this off at the pass - may be too late now.
Lots of questions.
1. The NW folks say that they are not asking for "Pay for Play", but that has to be a nautural extension.
2. Does everyone get the same $$$ / benefits?? Do Seniors get more than Freshman?? (Union Model) or do QB or Star RB get more than reserve kickers??
3. Do I have to join the Union? Advantage to Southern Right to Work states - Big 10 takes another hit.
4. If it is not Pay for Play, how do I have money to pay my Union Dues??
My view
1. This may not be awful for Big Time College FB, but it is bad for overall CFB and a disaster for sports not called Football and Men's BB.
2. The coaches salaries have gotten out of control and it is hard to cry that you have no money when your highest paid employee is a coach.
3. The top 65 or so schools have talked about forming their own NCAA like organization - this may do it for them. Those that can and those who can't.
4. Not sure everyone wants to go this way. If I am NW and can't play a couple of MAC schools and a FCS school, then it become REALLY hard to consistently win. The big guys just beat each other up - kind of like the BB teams that have great non-conference records and then they get into the conference schedule and have a losing record.
This is the opening shot that will take many years to work through the courts. Will be interesting to see how it ends.
Lastly - I think the NCAA and members could have moved faster and headed this off at the pass - may be too late now.
My experience in the private sector is that unions have two areas of influence....pay and working conditions. I don't know for sure but suspect pay will be the lead issue. Manufacturers will tell you it costs about 30% more to run a union shop than non-union shop.
At a meeting I attended last night among several coaches and administrators the issue of taxation came up. Employer provided benefits like work equipment(uniforms, helmets, shoes) can be taxed under certain circumstances as well as travel expenses under other circumstances. Although most college players would presumably fall into a tax bracket where the federal income tax is zero it could create an administrative layer of work.
I have no idea whether these tax considerations are an issue or not but expect to hear more about it as this develops
At a meeting I attended last night among several coaches and administrators the issue of taxation came up. Employer provided benefits like work equipment(uniforms, helmets, shoes) can be taxed under certain circumstances as well as travel expenses under other circumstances. Although most college players would presumably fall into a tax bracket where the federal income tax is zero it could create an administrative layer of work.
I have no idea whether these tax considerations are an issue or not but expect to hear more about it as this develops
I get what your saying, but even with the scholarship that most players receive. What are the out of pocket expenses that they have for books and other things that the parents access with? Lets even talk about the fact that some take on part time jobs to help take care of themselves, with other things like clothing and food too... If our boys didnt have the military little bit of whatever you call it, where would they be and they still get some assistance from their parents..... But like you said this is going to be real interesting to see how this turns out. Personally I believe their on to something, things are going to change. These players see the money that's coming in off them, and they want a piece of the pie.... Maybe if things was the way it use to be, when players was payed big money to attend these big time colleges everybody was happy, even tho it was suppose to be done in secret. But everybody knew little Johnny didnt have a BMW before he went to that school and he brought his mommy a brand new house. hahahahaha those schools was getting money then and nobody went broke behind it either... Im just saying
This post was edited on 3/27 2:13 PM by Bulletproof09
Looking at bullet point demands the player groups sound reasonable. The problem will be the lawyers who are gearing up to plunder schools using what i see as bogus concussion hysteria. I also see the administration and unions pulling strings. The players have been setting up with help from United Steelworkers . I don't see all this as just a bunch of players getting together out of the blue.
One player leading unionization was a LB at UCLA. He saw a fellow player get suspended for taking needed grocery money. I can understand that sort of thing. They want to use the Olympic model where athletes can stay amateur but accept some form of paid endorsements, perks etc. They also don' t want whole teams punished for infractions by a few. Lots of innocent players get banned from playoffs because of something a sketchy agent might pull off. The players want year round health-insuracne since they still have to practice in summer. They want scholarship protection for players that get hurt and can't play anymore. They don't want a lot of "pay" as much as another 3k to cover expenses. The focus on more money is mostly for football and basketall players (they support around 50 mil for all Title IX sports though). They want more active maintenance for things like concussions and prevention.
When you consider NCAA is getting a billion a year just for March Madness basketball, and colleges are breaking league contracts left and right chasing more dollars its hard to tell guys practicing football all year that a burger and beer from a booster might get them and their team in trouble.
I went to the twitter sites of the new player groups and the people THEY follow are full of injury lawyers and union groups.
The main organizer for Northwestern (and its no surprise this push comes out of Illinois) was the QB who stank up Michie when he replaced an injured Dan Persa.
One player leading unionization was a LB at UCLA. He saw a fellow player get suspended for taking needed grocery money. I can understand that sort of thing. They want to use the Olympic model where athletes can stay amateur but accept some form of paid endorsements, perks etc. They also don' t want whole teams punished for infractions by a few. Lots of innocent players get banned from playoffs because of something a sketchy agent might pull off. The players want year round health-insuracne since they still have to practice in summer. They want scholarship protection for players that get hurt and can't play anymore. They don't want a lot of "pay" as much as another 3k to cover expenses. The focus on more money is mostly for football and basketall players (they support around 50 mil for all Title IX sports though). They want more active maintenance for things like concussions and prevention.
When you consider NCAA is getting a billion a year just for March Madness basketball, and colleges are breaking league contracts left and right chasing more dollars its hard to tell guys practicing football all year that a burger and beer from a booster might get them and their team in trouble.
I went to the twitter sites of the new player groups and the people THEY follow are full of injury lawyers and union groups.
The main organizer for Northwestern (and its no surprise this push comes out of Illinois) was the QB who stank up Michie when he replaced an injured Dan Persa.
Well said my friend, is that asking to much for what they pull in on a regular (EVERY YEAR) I would even go as far as to say give them a reasonable amount of money resource deal that they can be partake in as an endorsement, to make sure they keep money in their pockets while they attend the college, just put a yearly cap on it as to what year they in at school. Enough that they won't feel their being taking advantage of. It's really something the NCAA can allow to save us a lot of heartache and pain of dragging out the inevitable. .. Come on its more then enough money to go around. Just make (EVERY ONE) pay out every year.
Woweeee, is it really that deep? I really didnt know that, with these powerhouse teams... Then we wonder why we cant compete, I guess the hell we cant if we playing teams that practice or whatever 40 to 50 hrs a week... AND 20hrs of sch. and they dont hire noone whose not with it... Are you kidding me, that's beyond insane! And the NCAA dont and wont step in and do nothing about it, as long as these schools are bringing in the donuts....this is horrible... Then you ask yourself the question as to why these players come out school after 2yrs, they already working so why not come out and get payed for it.... I feel even worst for the players after reading this.... WOW
This post was edited on 3/28 2:22 PM by Bulletproof09
I guess that taxes should start with the $60-70k of earnings at Northwestern (value of the scholarship) plus the additional pay. Local, state, and federal goverments will like this. There should be 20 or so pay grades based on position and place in the depth chart. Can they refuse to play nonunion, "scab" teams? There should be a separate pay scale for TV games. The lawyers negotiating all this will make the most money, as they usually do. Colleges will pay for all this with the money they save from dropping all the non-money making sports (which will be most other sports). This might pretty much gut title IX as most women's teams can't fund themselves, and other men's teams will have to also be eliminated. This will be fun to watch it play out over the next few years, and see if anyone can add the required common sense to solve the issue without punishing others.
Oh they will Snoopy.... it was just a matter of time for something like this to happen. People are making a lot of money off this football stuff. And the people that's putting in the hard labor for it want to be compensated. Like they say everybody don't make it to the NFL, but some get injured for the rest of their trying and don't have nothing to show for it.
I don't think a big payday for college athletes is where this is pointed (yet). Organizers seem to recognize most sports are a loss for colleges, and its the football and basketball games that are paying for them (and its worth remember colleges themselves have gotten so expensive because of escalating costs that go faster that health-care because colleges know gov aid and loans will cover their extortion). I don't think athletes would want to pay the taxes on scholarships if they went from grants to pay.
I wouldn't want players to become employees and dont think it will go that way. I think there are colleges will drop sports before they go that way and some anti-football people (there are more than people realize) would like that. Lawyers and insurance people might yet drive football the way of diving boards, slides and sand boxes anyway. Some are trying to make football the like asbestos and lead.
The NCAA has become farcical and wont last. They rake in billions of dollars. Some coaches are making 6 million. 2 million is no big deal. But a player can't have a burger from the wrong person. If six guys get burgers from wrong person the whole team loses bowl games and TV - all while NCAA stresses the "student athlete" thing but meanwhile FSU is only graduating 35% of its players despite classes in volleyball and Beyonce. Its a circus of the absurd.
For me, I mostly dislike watching the top of D1 functioning pretty much as semi pro teams for NFL. They have players that aren't really in college to be students - and they get propped up by their schools artificially - look at UNC scandal (they aren't unique). All season I watch teams like Army, Rutgers, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt etc try to play football while keeping some standards - and that at seasons end I watch the de facto semi-pro teams with $6 million coaches and farcical academics walk off with the trophies and glory. If anything the new developments are at least addressing that discrepancy.
This post was edited on 3/28 10:17 PM by ashokan
I wouldn't want players to become employees and dont think it will go that way. I think there are colleges will drop sports before they go that way and some anti-football people (there are more than people realize) would like that. Lawyers and insurance people might yet drive football the way of diving boards, slides and sand boxes anyway. Some are trying to make football the like asbestos and lead.
The NCAA has become farcical and wont last. They rake in billions of dollars. Some coaches are making 6 million. 2 million is no big deal. But a player can't have a burger from the wrong person. If six guys get burgers from wrong person the whole team loses bowl games and TV - all while NCAA stresses the "student athlete" thing but meanwhile FSU is only graduating 35% of its players despite classes in volleyball and Beyonce. Its a circus of the absurd.
For me, I mostly dislike watching the top of D1 functioning pretty much as semi pro teams for NFL. They have players that aren't really in college to be students - and they get propped up by their schools artificially - look at UNC scandal (they aren't unique). All season I watch teams like Army, Rutgers, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt etc try to play football while keeping some standards - and that at seasons end I watch the de facto semi-pro teams with $6 million coaches and farcical academics walk off with the trophies and glory. If anything the new developments are at least addressing that discrepancy.
This post was edited on 3/28 10:17 PM by ashokan
I agree with you, specially about the players becoming employees. Nor do I think we're see anything happen anytime soon. But I'm sure the NCAA is sitting at the table trying to figure this out, as to what they can do to head this off. Sparking conversation and bringing things to the light for change is a people's right. Football in some schools has so many flaws in it, that I don't believe it will fully be hatched out. It's about money and power, that they going to fight hard to keep control over. We talking bout a billion dollar industry on a yearly bases. But I personally believe they will work something out, it's just a matter of when.
"It's about money and power, that they going to fight hard to keep control over."
Some people involved in the area are concerned its the top athletes who will end up seeing the most benefits. There is some precedence for that with the pro game. Boomer Esiason always explains that when he was a union rep during NFL strikes the movement got twisted away from care for all athletes to money for the top athletes. The NFL players union wanted to mimic the baseball union. He blames the players union for the hard times some former players fall on (guys getting lots of surgeries with no insurance etc).
Some people involved in the area are concerned its the top athletes who will end up seeing the most benefits. There is some precedence for that with the pro game. Boomer Esiason always explains that when he was a union rep during NFL strikes the movement got twisted away from care for all athletes to money for the top athletes. The NFL players union wanted to mimic the baseball union. He blames the players union for the hard times some former players fall on (guys getting lots of surgeries with no insurance etc).
I dont mean no harm, but thats a bunch of bull..... If you honestly believe that they will stop playing D1 football at that school??????? Please that's just like saying we're shutting our school doors altogether. Everybody in their mother knows that "its because of football, that they exist. The money they pull in pays alot of peoples million dollar salaries... And that goes for alot of schools.... On the CNN video, you have to sympathize with what these players are describing. You cant just close your eyes to their heartship. So its going to be left to the NCAA to change somethings that will help out this situation. Cause at the end of the day, they have been racking up the doe for centuries.... They have had college football locked down, and its time to break bread... All good things come to an end, sometimes we got to give a little to get more....
This post was edited on 4/2 12:42 PM by Bulletproof09
You clearly know nothing about Northwestern University if you think that it needs football money. Northwestern has an endowment of almost $8 BILLION.
If they unionize and if Northwestern doesn't give up scholarship football, that will not say anything about Northwestern's financial dependence on football. No one said they WILL drop scholarship football, the President Emeritus (you know what that is, right?) said he COULD SEE it happening.
Northwestern is not financially dependent on football. They just aren't.
Northwestern is not financially dependent on football. They just aren't.
Hey if that's what you say im ok with that.... But honestly Ducrot do you really believe that any D1 program would drop their football program, even for this reason? Ok I get you saying their a billion dollar whatever, they still get money from the state like everybody else, that helps keep that school running. Plus it helps gives your program get acknowledgement in this competitive busy called (college)
This post was edited on 4/3 1:17 PM by Bulletproof09
Originally posted by armyfan:
I may be wrong, but I think Northwestern is a private school and doesn't get any state money. So they are free to do as they please.
Wow! Its starting to really come out now, its going to happen specially when you have the (state) behind you its just a matter of time. This is truly a humane issue, as stated they make "millions", so why not just come to the table and work this out instead of appealing it, wasting money on something your not going to win on. That you can put towards the cause your fighting against. Its going to happen and I dont care if your school has billions or not. As you so boldly put it that (Northwestern) has "Billions", well they really shouldn't have a problem with what the athletes are asking for, that should be a walk in the park for them. But greed always have a way of blinding you into thinking that "your" opinion matters more, then the people who are helping you get what you have.... You stated that Northwestern could drop the program, (ok) well what about the other athletic programs they have, thats going to come behind them with the same issues, they going to drop them too???? Come on now!!!!!! Things are going to change, more stuff is going to start coming out it cant continue this way....
This post was edited on 4/8 10:32 AM by Bulletproof09
Well Njfan its official now..... really I didn't think it was going to happen this fast.... Northern(administration) is not going to win this battle, its a done deal... I knew once the State got behind them(players) that was a wrap! It would be a waste of money to keep going to court for this, its not going to change the ruling, its been along time coming. The NCAA is going to have to change the rules now, because other schools are going to jump in on this.... IT'S TIME TO BREAK BREAD BIG GUYS, SHARE THE WEALTH!
I can't wait to see how many other players from different colleges going to jump on this too! If the NCAA jump in now an change some of the rules, before this becomes mandatory for (all) the college teams. That will allow the other colleges a better way to help support their players for their hard work they put in for these schools.... Change is here!!!!
This post was edited on 4/25 4:14 PM by Bulletproof09
What is official?Originally posted by Bulletproof09:
Well Njfan its official now..... really I didn't think it was going to happen this fast.... Northern(administration) is not going to win this battle, its a done deal... I knew once the State got behind them(players) that was a wrap! It would be a waste of money to keep going to court for this, its not going to change the ruling, its been along time coming. The NCAA is going to have to change the rules now, because other schools are going to jump in on this.... IT'S TIME TO BREAK BREAD BIG GUYS, SHARE THE WEALTH!
I can't wait to see how many other players from different colleges going to jump on this too! If the NCAA jump in now an change some of the rules, before this becomes mandatory for (all) the college teams. That will allow the other colleges a better way to help support their players for their hard work they put in for these schools.... Change is here!!!!
This post was edited on 4/25 4:14 PM by Bulletproof09
What "state" is "behind" the NorthWESTERN players?
Do you have any idea what is actually happening?
Well I was going off the latest news, but please feel free to enlighten me on the (news) that your aware of... As far as the state being behind them, I was basing that on State Rep. Matthew Lesser pertaining to UConn, who said that other state lawmakers are considering legislation that "would" allow unionize! With the National Board of Labor of Chicago, awarding them the right to do so, says a lot..... Granted I think if the NCAA, would step in would help... Just like Texas AD, who says they work with their players, and I think (all) schools should. And its up to the NCAA to enforce it in the bylaws, it should have been this way for (all) athletes who are on (any) college sports.... The schools should never be allowed to put them out without a degree, because they where hurt in your (program) and can't perform anymore.... (its horrible) If education is apart of your program, then let it continue until graduation.... Let them have something to fall back on!!!!!!Originally posted by ducrot pepys:
What is official?Originally posted by Bulletproof09:
Well Njfan its official now..... really I didn't think it was going to happen this fast.... Northern(administration) is not going to win this battle, its a done deal... I knew once the State got behind them(players) that was a wrap! It would be a waste of money to keep going to court for this, its not going to change the ruling, its been along time coming. The NCAA is going to have to change the rules now, because other schools are going to jump in on this.... IT'S TIME TO BREAK BREAD BIG GUYS, SHARE THE WEALTH!
I can't wait to see how many other players from different colleges going to jump on this too! If the NCAA jump in now an change some of the rules, before this becomes mandatory for (all) the college teams. That will allow the other colleges a better way to help support their players for their hard work they put in for these schools.... Change is here!!!!
This post was edited on 4/25 4:14 PM by Bulletproof09
What "state" is "behind" the NorthWESTERN players?
Do you have any idea what is actually happening?
This post was edited on 4/28 1:36 PM by Bulletproof09
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